Dealing with large casts

[graychalk]

Hiya everyone! I'm still fairly new to this community, but I've really been enjoying how helpful and encouraging everyone is here. I thought I should come out of lurkdom a bit and say hello. :)

I'd also like to bring up a topic that I hope could get some kind of discussion going, because I've been batting this stuff in my brain for months and I keep going back and forth on the best way to approach this. So... without further rambling, how do you guys deal with writing large casts - especially ones where there are quite a few key characters that would be important enough to warrant their point of views too?

Do you tend to prefer switching between POVs by a break of some sort, or do you brave the omniscient POV and hope it doesn't turn into a mess of head-hopping? And if you do dedicated switches between POVs, when do you make your switches? Within the same scene or do you make it a point to only do it when it's a new scene? Or something else entirely?

I would really love any input on this - it's driving me a bit nuts because I can't seem to find an approach that fits for my fic. :(

Thanks all!

Comments

[littlebutfierce]

I don't have large casts (or long fics), per se, but I've done multiple-POV fics before. I start a new section (marking off w/asterisks or whatever) when I switch POVs. & I was nervous about doing it the first time, definitely (& then that's now become my most popular fic, soooooo I guess I did all right ^^;;; ).

I find the omniscient POV hard to read sometimes, but that might be sometimes when people don't consciously seem to choose to do that; they just sort of let POVs leak between each other.

[graychalk]

Did you switch between the same scene? Or was it a new scene entirely when you went with a different POV?

Omniscient POV is... I don't know, tricky at best. Maybe it's just because I've heard so much bashing for that POV that I get a bit scared. It seems to be difficult to do "correctly" and there's supposedly a fine line between that and letting POVs leak between each other, as you've mentioned. I'm really tempted to do Omniscient since it seems like it might be best, but I admit to be being wary about it. Sigh.

[dhae_knight_1]

It... Depends. I've done fic with one POV, fic with two POV's (switched with chapter-breaks) and omniscient, 3rd person POV, which is useful if you've got things going down all over, but don't want to head-hop. Downside is that you *can't* head-hop, so it tends to get more impersonal, for me.

I'll say that the Night's Dawn trilogy is probably the best multi-POV I've ever read, but since you have to dig about 500 pages into book one beforr characters start repeating, it's a bit of a mouthful.

Also; maybe different in fanfic, but I always worry that my readers don't get the chance to 'invest' properly in the individual characters. Plus, there's usually one or two in every fandom I find easier and more enjoyable to read than the rest, so they usually get POV. :-)

[littlebutfierce]

I kept each scene w/a different POV.

I kind of like the challenge of showing what I need to show in a certain scene when only using one third-person limited POV -- it can be really hard, & sometimes it means I have to change the POV if what I decide is most important to show in a scene won't be visible from the POV I'm using, but it can be kinda fun. :D I feel like it makes me tighten up my writing more, if that makes sense.

[asecretchord]

I'm looking forward to reading this thread since I head-hop constantly, no matter how hard I try not to. One of the comments I received said she was getting whiplash from the shifts in POV. It's a terrible flaw in my writing, but I haven't found a solution that works for me yet.

[graychalk]

You know, what you've said reminds me of the general disagreements between what people consider omniscient and not. Some insist that you can "head-hop" (for the lack of a better word) if done correctly by showing a transition of some sort. Others seem to view it in a much more strict manner, in that it can't show any personal feelings. But there has also been arguments about how you can dive in closer as well (I can't recall the exact term - something about a closer version of omniscient). It's just all very UGH to me. The more I read up on it, the more unsure I become.

I'm going to have to put Night's Dawn trilogy into my to-read list, if only to see how a multi-POV is approached there - because, wow, 500 pages into the book before characters repeat again!

[roane]

I haven't done this in fic yet, but in my original stuff I generally do 3rd person limited and break scenes by POV. That's probably the most standard route in most of the stuff I can think of off the top of my head. It's (IMO) easiest to write, or at least in a tie with first-person. The trick is to figure out which scenes/plot points need to come from which perspective, and why. Who knows something the audience needs to know? Maybe they should be the POV. Who doesn't know something you want the audience to be surprised by? Maybe they should be the POV for that.

The biggest thing about tenses and POVs and all that is that ultimately, they should be invisible. Perfect example: I read an absolutely brilliant novel-length Sherlock AU last night and this morning. And it wasn't until I was in the LAST CHAPTER that it suddenly occurred to me that it was in the present tense. It was so well done, I just hadn't noticed it before. The second an "average" reader goes "Oh look, they're using technique X," that may be a sign it's not working.

[graychalk]

Oh, I definitely see/know what you mean. I do tend to think that staying within just one POV at least for a whole scene reads smoother. It's common enough in fanfics to switch POV mid-scene (usually a romance where they want to show one side and then the other side within the same scene) but I still think it's quite tricky to get right.

[roane]

That said, I have put myself into one hell of a position because my latest fic--which is, god help me, shaping up to be part of a series--is written in first-person. And at the very end, a secret is revealed (via a very distant third-person omni POV) that my POV character doesn't know. I dunno how I'm going to deal with that one in later works. :)

[graychalk]

Oh, ouch! I totally know where you're coming from. I've been guilty of this too, until I started obsessively paying attention to it.

Do you know why you do this though? I ask this because sometimes it's helpful to figure out why the need is there to head-hop. For example, is it because you think you need to express the feelings of all characters involved (and do you really need to)? And is there a better way to approach it? I've asked myself these questions time and time again, then forced myself to write it in such a way where I can still convey the emotion without head-hopping. Sometimes, the solution comes... other times, it obviously doesn't (like now). *wry grin*

[dhae_knight_1]

It is a *long* freaking trilogy. Yhe first book is a thousand pages; the next two even longer. But it's brilliantly written, the worldbuilding is amazing and I recommend them to anyone who likes sci-fi. There is *one* major disappointment, but it's, like 5 pages long, so I won't spoil. And also, IIRC it takes about 200 pages for the hook to set and the story to become really catching, so just... Keep at it. :-)

I tend to not do multiple POV's unless I have to. Two is fine, if I want to show both sides of a story, but I'd only use more if the story is scattered over multiple places/times/whatever. But that's also because I like playing with what characters don't know about the others.

Also, maybe because I'm not that experienced or trained or whatever, I tend to view chapter as the minimum amount of time between POV-changes. And, preferably, time and location-hop as well. I find multiple POV's in a single scene vastly confusing, and a little boring. If the reader knows everything everyone is thinking; where's the surprises? Where's the stuff that makes the reader wonder and think for themselves?

[insignia]

It's usually best to have some kind of scene break when switching POVs, like an asterisk or line or something, even if it's technically the same scene. Omniscient POV can work, but it's really hard to get right. The main thing is that an omniscient narrator, by definition, knows everything about everybody, and you have to make that clear somehow. If you only describe one person's thoughts for a while, because the others aren't relevant, it'll read like a limited POV and switching to someone else later in the scene will be jarring. It's especially tricky because it's a very uncommon technique, so readers won't expect it. If you do get it right, though, it can potentially be very effective.

[graychalk]

That actually sounds very interesting, especially with how you'd have the secret revealed in such a different POV. I like reading stuff like that when it's done well - almost like being able to look in from elsewhere, sort of like interludes. Best of luck with this! :D

That aside, you've made some really great points about needing to figure out which scene needs to come from which POV. Sometimes, I'd think I have it all down pat until I come across a scene where multiple characters are involved ALL at once, and it's like... the main character needs this POV for sure because she's directly involved... but then one particular person who is observing the scene is just clamoring to be heard too, so it all falls apart in one big STUCK-dom. Quite frustrating. :\

Oh, but I totally know what you mean about when something is done so well you don't even realize it's being used until much later. It really is quite amazing and something I still hope to be able to achieve - alas, I don't think I'm quite there yet, lol.

[dhae_knight_1]

Try writing first-person. That way, jumping POV becomes really obvious and really awkward. And it might make you aware of all the ways you can represent the other characters' POV. Once you're aware, I'll bet you can switch back and not automatically do multiple POV's :-)

[musyc]

If you only describe one person's thoughts for a while, because the others aren't relevant, it'll read like a limited POV and switching to someone else later in the scene will be jarring.

This is the problem I have with most authors' attempts at omniscient POV. They're not actually using it - they're doing a tight, limited POV from one character and then there's SUDDENLY BACK ON THE RANCH for three paragraphs before jumping back to the limited. If there are distinct breaks (scene, time, even just a visual space on the page), then I accept the POV switch much better because it's not an outright intrusion.

[graychalk]

If you only describe one person's thoughts for a while, because the others aren't relevant, it'll read like a limited POV and switching to someone else later in the scene will be jarring.

Yes, this! Making it clear somehow, as you put it, pretty much does sum it up. I've mulled over, and short of "Once upon a time"... it really is rather difficult to approach a more personal omniscient POV right off the bat and get it right. For me, that is. It's almost like writing a distant method of storytelling without being distant, and that's probably when it veers very close to head-hopping.

[asecretchord]

Thanks for providing some much-needed food for thought.

I suspect I'm asking myself the wrong questions: instead of asking 'why is Hermione angry' and stepping inside her head to find the answer, I should ask 'what about the situation results in Hermione being angry' and then expressing that through dialogue (or other means). I really need to wean myself away from explaining every single thing each character does. *wry grin*

[graychalk]

LOL, we quoted the same line... and you also pretty much said what I wanted to say, except much more to the point than I managed.

[asecretchord]

Apropos of absolutely nothing, I love your icon!

[asecretchord]

Great idea! I tend to avoid first person works, but I can see the benefit of writing a problematic scene that way, then converting it to third person for the story.

[musyc]

And since I have just backbuttoned out of three different fics with this problem, I have to comment on it.

If you're POV-switching between chapters/scenes/whatever, for the love of tiny green apples don't head the section with "JACOB'S POV". That just screams "I don't know what I'm doing with character voice" to me. I don't mind a simple "Jacob" or "Paula" as an identifier so much, but adding that little "POV" to it is just ... fail.

[roane]

Aw, first person can be a lot of fun. Especially if you're writing a character who's a deadpan snarker. :)

[musyc]

Thank you! I've mostly abandoned my flute playing over the past decade, but I still cling to my flute icon. XD I think if I switched defaults, not a person on the internet would know it was me.

[musyc]

It was a good line! :D Cuts into the heart of it there.

[roane]

Thanks! For your scene, does the main character need the POV just because she's the main character? Is there anything in her head that the audience needs to know/see that can't be shown another way? If the other character's clamoring, that might be a sign. Try writing it from the other character's perspective and see what happens. Even if it's a big emotional event or conflict, hearing it from a more neutral observer might be interesting!