Dealing with large casts

[graychalk]

Hiya everyone! I'm still fairly new to this community, but I've really been enjoying how helpful and encouraging everyone is here. I thought I should come out of lurkdom a bit and say hello. :)

I'd also like to bring up a topic that I hope could get some kind of discussion going, because I've been batting this stuff in my brain for months and I keep going back and forth on the best way to approach this. So... without further rambling, how do you guys deal with writing large casts - especially ones where there are quite a few key characters that would be important enough to warrant their point of views too?

Do you tend to prefer switching between POVs by a break of some sort, or do you brave the omniscient POV and hope it doesn't turn into a mess of head-hopping? And if you do dedicated switches between POVs, when do you make your switches? Within the same scene or do you make it a point to only do it when it's a new scene? Or something else entirely?

I would really love any input on this - it's driving me a bit nuts because I can't seem to find an approach that fits for my fic. :(

Thanks all!

Comments

[littlebutfierce]

I don't have large casts (or long fics), per se, but I've done multiple-POV fics before. I start a new section (marking off w/asterisks or whatever) when I switch POVs. & I was nervous about doing it the first time, definitely (& then that's now become my most popular fic, soooooo I guess I did all right ^^;;; ).

I find the omniscient POV hard to read sometimes, but that might be sometimes when people don't consciously seem to choose to do that; they just sort of let POVs leak between each other.

[graychalk]

Did you switch between the same scene? Or was it a new scene entirely when you went with a different POV?

Omniscient POV is... I don't know, tricky at best. Maybe it's just because I've heard so much bashing for that POV that I get a bit scared. It seems to be difficult to do "correctly" and there's supposedly a fine line between that and letting POVs leak between each other, as you've mentioned. I'm really tempted to do Omniscient since it seems like it might be best, but I admit to be being wary about it. Sigh.

[dhae_knight_1]

It... Depends. I've done fic with one POV, fic with two POV's (switched with chapter-breaks) and omniscient, 3rd person POV, which is useful if you've got things going down all over, but don't want to head-hop. Downside is that you *can't* head-hop, so it tends to get more impersonal, for me.

I'll say that the Night's Dawn trilogy is probably the best multi-POV I've ever read, but since you have to dig about 500 pages into book one beforr characters start repeating, it's a bit of a mouthful.

Also; maybe different in fanfic, but I always worry that my readers don't get the chance to 'invest' properly in the individual characters. Plus, there's usually one or two in every fandom I find easier and more enjoyable to read than the rest, so they usually get POV. :-)

[graychalk]

You know, what you've said reminds me of the general disagreements between what people consider omniscient and not. Some insist that you can "head-hop" (for the lack of a better word) if done correctly by showing a transition of some sort. Others seem to view it in a much more strict manner, in that it can't show any personal feelings. But there has also been arguments about how you can dive in closer as well (I can't recall the exact term - something about a closer version of omniscient). It's just all very UGH to me. The more I read up on it, the more unsure I become.

I'm going to have to put Night's Dawn trilogy into my to-read list, if only to see how a multi-POV is approached there - because, wow, 500 pages into the book before characters repeat again!

[asecretchord]

I'm looking forward to reading this thread since I head-hop constantly, no matter how hard I try not to. One of the comments I received said she was getting whiplash from the shifts in POV. It's a terrible flaw in my writing, but I haven't found a solution that works for me yet.

[graychalk]

Oh, ouch! I totally know where you're coming from. I've been guilty of this too, until I started obsessively paying attention to it.

Do you know why you do this though? I ask this because sometimes it's helpful to figure out why the need is there to head-hop. For example, is it because you think you need to express the feelings of all characters involved (and do you really need to)? And is there a better way to approach it? I've asked myself these questions time and time again, then forced myself to write it in such a way where I can still convey the emotion without head-hopping. Sometimes, the solution comes... other times, it obviously doesn't (like now). *wry grin*

[dhae_knight_1]

Try writing first-person. That way, jumping POV becomes really obvious and really awkward. And it might make you aware of all the ways you can represent the other characters' POV. Once you're aware, I'll bet you can switch back and not automatically do multiple POV's :-)

[roane]

I haven't done this in fic yet, but in my original stuff I generally do 3rd person limited and break scenes by POV. That's probably the most standard route in most of the stuff I can think of off the top of my head. It's (IMO) easiest to write, or at least in a tie with first-person. The trick is to figure out which scenes/plot points need to come from which perspective, and why. Who knows something the audience needs to know? Maybe they should be the POV. Who doesn't know something you want the audience to be surprised by? Maybe they should be the POV for that.

The biggest thing about tenses and POVs and all that is that ultimately, they should be invisible. Perfect example: I read an absolutely brilliant novel-length Sherlock AU last night and this morning. And it wasn't until I was in the LAST CHAPTER that it suddenly occurred to me that it was in the present tense. It was so well done, I just hadn't noticed it before. The second an "average" reader goes "Oh look, they're using technique X," that may be a sign it's not working.

[roane]

That said, I have put myself into one hell of a position because my latest fic--which is, god help me, shaping up to be part of a series--is written in first-person. And at the very end, a secret is revealed (via a very distant third-person omni POV) that my POV character doesn't know. I dunno how I'm going to deal with that one in later works. :)

[insignia]

It's usually best to have some kind of scene break when switching POVs, like an asterisk or line or something, even if it's technically the same scene. Omniscient POV can work, but it's really hard to get right. The main thing is that an omniscient narrator, by definition, knows everything about everybody, and you have to make that clear somehow. If you only describe one person's thoughts for a while, because the others aren't relevant, it'll read like a limited POV and switching to someone else later in the scene will be jarring. It's especially tricky because it's a very uncommon technique, so readers won't expect it. If you do get it right, though, it can potentially be very effective.

[musyc]

If you only describe one person's thoughts for a while, because the others aren't relevant, it'll read like a limited POV and switching to someone else later in the scene will be jarring.

This is the problem I have with most authors' attempts at omniscient POV. They're not actually using it - they're doing a tight, limited POV from one character and then there's SUDDENLY BACK ON THE RANCH for three paragraphs before jumping back to the limited. If there are distinct breaks (scene, time, even just a visual space on the page), then I accept the POV switch much better because it's not an outright intrusion.

[graychalk]

If you only describe one person's thoughts for a while, because the others aren't relevant, it'll read like a limited POV and switching to someone else later in the scene will be jarring.

Yes, this! Making it clear somehow, as you put it, pretty much does sum it up. I've mulled over, and short of "Once upon a time"... it really is rather difficult to approach a more personal omniscient POV right off the bat and get it right. For me, that is. It's almost like writing a distant method of storytelling without being distant, and that's probably when it veers very close to head-hopping.

[musyc]

And since I have just backbuttoned out of three different fics with this problem, I have to comment on it.

If you're POV-switching between chapters/scenes/whatever, for the love of tiny green apples don't head the section with "JACOB'S POV". That just screams "I don't know what I'm doing with character voice" to me. I don't mind a simple "Jacob" or "Paula" as an identifier so much, but adding that little "POV" to it is just ... fail.

[dhae_knight_1]

I think it should be; if you're incapable of making it clear in the first sentence who you just switched to, you shouldn't be doing it. ;-)

[insignia]

It's even worse when they switch every few lines or so for no good reason, like...

JACOB'S POV
Jacob walked in through the hallway in his muddy boots, even though he knew Paula hated when he did that.

PAULA'S POV
"I hate when you do that," said Paula, who was very annoyed by Jacob's behaviour.

[graychalk]

Oh yes, this. It usually makes me roll my eyes a bit, because it just feels so redundant. I don't necessarily see it a sign of bad writing coming up (thought it often very well could be), but yeah... I definitely know where you're coming from.

[annotated_em]

I pretty much only ever write close third-person--that is, the only thing I let into the narration is what my pov character notices and knows (or is told). I generally don't switch pov inside a fic. I tend to be of the mind that if I need to do that to get something important across, then I'm not doing the thing properly. If having multiple povs becomes important, I usually go for multiple fics or at chapter breaks. And nothing makes me dive for the back button faster than a fic where the pov shifts around mid-scene. I was reading something just last night where the paragraphs altered from John to Sherlock for no good apparent reason.

Seems to me that keeping the pov closed on one character at a time is useful for building tension. What does the character know? What doesn't s/he know? What does s/he wonder about? When does knowledge/lack of knowledge cause problems or solve them? How can it drive your plot forward?

[amaresu]

I really like 3rd person limited as a pov because it lets you get in tight with what is going on without the downfalls of 1st person in a fannish context. For me pov switching should be done when scenes switch, or if it's in the same scene the new pov is adding something substantially different. Reading the same scene from multiple povs is just boring, for me at least. I think the Law of Conservation of Detail is good to remember: If it doesn't have a purpose, don't write it.

Basically ask yourself a simple question every time you switch povs: Does this provide something substantial to the story? If the answer is no, then don't do it. If the answer is yes, do it and make sure the important bit is the focus.

The discussion has talked about omniscient third-person pov which is really tricky to get done right. Mainly because it's not a popular writing style anymore so very few people really knows what is should look like before they start trying to do it. I personally hate with the blinding fires of a thousands suns, but that doesn't mean it's bad (and I have been known to enjoy the occasional thing written in it). If you want to look at examples of well done omniscient third-person then look at literature from the 18th and 19th century, it was the predominate writing style at the time. Check out Jane Austin, Charles Dicksons, and their contemporaries. Modern examples would be Lemony Snicket and Phillip Pullman, but again it's just not done very often anymore.

[roane]

Quick question. What are the downfalls of 1st person in a fannish context? I'm a fic newbie, so I'm really hoping I haven't just fallen prey to them! :)

[graychalk]

Hmm, I got a forbidden access for the link you left, though I definitely agree with what you've said. At the end of the day, that is pretty much the all important question to ask when writing - and not just in the matters of POV.

Omniscient, I've read, isn't quite the same today anymore as it used to be. It was a lot more prominent a couple of centuries ago, as you've mentioned, but I'm finding more and more that it's used more often today than people think. One off the top of my head is Harry Potter. It seems to be a debate among some, whether HP is considered omniscient or not, but I remember coming across some huge discussion/analysis somewhere that showed examples of how it actually is omniscient done well.

[enemytosleep]

I prefer switching POV with breaks myself.

[lesandytomato]

I think it's really important to decide what you want the readers to know, and which character's thoughts are instrumental in moving the plot along.

If you think it's best if everyone's thoughts are explored, then write in the omniscient P.O.V. Or, you could write the same scene in different character's P.O.V, although that could get repetitive if they're not going through different experiences at the same time.

In the end, how you decide to write should all tie back to you being in control of what you want your readers to know and experience and what will keep the plot going.

Hope this helped. :>

[xpaperplanex]

When I'm switching POV, I tend to mark it with asterisks, and I try to only do it at scene breaks. I don't have a problem with head-hopping within a scene, but as many people have already pointed out, it's often not done well and can be really jarring and confusing. I'd really have to study some examples of 3rd person omniscient before I felt comfortable with it.

Lately, though, I've been experimenting a little in my own way. I'm working on one fic that's entirely from one person's POV, which was a first for me when I started writing it. I found it an interesting challenge to get across the information that I needed to while sticking with the same person all the time. I did another fic where I kept the scenes quite short and hopped between characters each scene, depending on who would have the most interesting POV. But I'm finding that as I've gotten used to it, I'm preferring to stick with one person, or at the most, two. It's a lot simpler, and I think the story ends up being a lot more cohesive that way. Also, if I've got more than two people, I tend to forget about one of them for huge amounts of time, then it seems really weird to bring them in again.

[jesseszen]

Dear Gray-

If you can accept yet another 2 cents worth-

For the readers sake I would suggest no more than 3 points of view and each character should begin their observances in new chapters/sections so as to avoid tiring your readers' minds. I think additionally, it would be acceptable to use flashback or other devices within these general rules.

As long as the reader knows who they're 'riding with' at the moment multiple POV's can be exciting.

Best,

Ki

[insignia]

Out of curiosity... If it's clear in any given scene whose head we're in, why does it matter how many POVs there are in total?