WIP challenge: day 16 check-in!

[littlebutfierce]

We're at the end of week 2. How's it going? Do you feel like you're on track for your goals for the month? Do you really need to kick yourself in the butt?

Why not drop a comment & let us know how it's going? Also feel free to post if you're looking for a beta, want to post a snippet of your WIP, or generally chat about fic! Hm -- does anyone want to drop links to promo posts for their fandoms? I guess this is more relevant to those of us in smaller fandoms, but anyway, if you'd like to give us the scoop on why you're in love w/the fandom(s) you're in, please do!

Comments

[littlebutfierce]

Thank you! (& ha, the sketch was Ryosuke -- I am sure I understand him least out of Wataru, Nippori & him. I'm still not sure I do, exactly, but I have a little something more, I think...)

& oh man, Natsuko is AMAZING!!! <3

[katzenjamming]

Ah, that's cool! I think he's definitely the most subtle character out of the three, and possibly all of them for that matter! I actually didn't really start to like or understand his character until a proper rewatch of the show and noticed a lot of little things (then again, I'm not the most observant person in the first place), but maybe that'd help a bit? Good luck to you either way!

[littlebutfierce]

Oh yeah, if I ever get past the noodling stage & get serious about fic for this fandom, a rewatch is definitely in order! I want to rewatch in any case, it's just... dramas are so much longer than anime, hahaha, so by the time I think about it in the evening it's easy to come up w/excuses for why I no longer have time that night. (Even though obviously I don't have to watch the whole ep in one go!)

[littlebutfierce]

Oh, & I wanted to say, as far as difficulty getting a handle on characters (not the same thing as which character is most subtle, though in my head there's often some overlap, ha), I really want to write something about Mizusawa & queerness that isn't just oversentimental stereotypical angst. Mostly cuz I'm having trouble finding fic that doesn't take that angle on him. ;_; (I mean, melodrama is obviously totally in keeping w/canon! But what works in canon I think doesn't work so well in fic, in this case...)

Buuut it's taking me a while to get to a more subtle take on it. Hopefully whenever I do rewatch I'll be more inspired.

[katzenjamming]

Re: Mizusawa - I've actually been having similar sentiments! TBH, I've been thinking of writing something like that, too -- which is a bit difficult for me since I'm really, really into angst and melodrama and somewhere along the line I jumped onto one of those ships. Still, I hate that there's only that one angle fandom uses for his character, though I guess I contribute to it as well. :S

In a few of my WIPs, I want to touch on him confronting the issue on a deeper level than what happened on the show, without staying too angsty or getting too shippy or resorting to someone's healing cock or whatever. But I always end up feeling like it's preachy and/or contrived. I guess the show was kind of preachy (youth dramas tend to be like that?) but I feel super-self-conscious trying to write him outside of that usual mold and still centering around his sexuality (for some canon reasons, and since I'm not used to going deep into this kind of issue). This is probably something I go on for days about, but I'll stop here! @_@

Anyhow, if you do get around to writing something like that, please give me a head's-up! I'd love to read it!

[littlebutfierce]

I want to touch on him confronting the issue on a deeper level than what happened on the show, without staying too angsty or getting too shippy or resorting to someone's healing cock or whatever. But I always end up feeling like it's preachy and/or contrived.

Yes, I know what you mean!!!! I guess... I dunno. There are ways to write about Discovering You're Gay that aren't preachy or melodramatic, but... he got set up that way in canon, so I find it hard to envisage him thinking about things differently! Although since the Big Gay Episode, the series doesn't really touch the issue after that -- so I've been trying to write him doing some more processing after that point.

I feel super-self-conscious trying to write him outside of that usual mold and still centering around his sexuality (for some canon reasons, and since I'm not used to going deep into this kind of issue

ME TOO. I like to imagine when I write 'issue fic' (BTW, I loved your check-in discussion topic about that this week!) I'm a bit more subtle. Though maybe I'm not -- or maybe I'm too subtle b/c I'm afraid of diving in & being blatant about an issue. I think there can be really good Issue Fic. I just might need some work to get there, ha.

Also, bizarrely for me, I am not really slashy about Tumbling! It's fairly common for me to get slashy about my fandoms, but I'm not really shippy on this one. Which hamstrings me again w/this fic, b/c if I wanted to write Mizusawa/Kiyama stuff, then, yeah, that would be another avenue towards the Fic of Great Acceptance of Gayness.

(Also I feel weird not being slashy about it, ha. Because I feel like a lot of the time when people say "But they just have such beautiful friendships & you don't get to see male friendships portrayed an awful lot of the time & blah blah I don't ship them" it's b/c they're trying to cover up being anti-slash. I'm not anti-slash! I love slash! I write slash! & yet I still feel kind of weird going, "Their friendships are awesome!!!!1")

This is probably something I go on for days about, but I'll stop here!

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO EXPOUND MORE I WILL TOTES LISTEN. Heh.

[katzenjamming]

I AM SORRY THIS IS SO LONG, BUT I ♥ THIS FANDOM AND HAVE SO MANY ~FEELINGS~ ABOUT IT.

"There are ways to write about Discovering You're Gay that aren't preachy or melodramatic, but... he got set up that way in canon, so I find it hard to envisage him thinking about things differently! Although since the Big Gay Episode, the series doesn't really touch the issue after that -- so I've been trying to write him doing some more processing after that point."

A lot of that, I think, is how the series worked -- every character had this issue to deal with that gets blown up majorly, whether that's realistic or not (I mean, Yuuta not being able to jump was The Big Issue for an episode)... and after that, they don't touch on it again. Though I can see it being advisable not talking about so-and-so's dead BFF/dead dad/kidnapping by the yakuza/terribly low SES/etc., sexuality is a whole different beast, y'know?

"I'm a bit more subtle. Though maybe I'm not -- or maybe I'm too subtle b/c I'm afraid of diving in & being blatant about an issue. I think there can be really good Issue Fic. I just might need some work to get there, ha."

I also believe there can be good Issue Fic, but so much of it is anvilicious that I want to stay away from it from a ten-foot pole. I would like to do the subtle approach, but often that way I don't feel like I'm doing said issue "justice", and ugh... there are some things I'd to try but I don't feel like I have the Writing Prowess or the Social Awareness to dive into it yet. At some point it gets overwhelming and I remember fandom is supposed to be my "fun thing" so I don't get a lot done... :S

"Also, bizarrely for me, I am not really slashy about Tumbling! It's fairly common for me to get slashy about my fandoms, but I'm not really shippy on this one. Which hamstrings me again w/this fic, b/c if I wanted to write Mizusawa/Kiyama stuff, then, yeah, that would be another avenue towards the Fic of Great Acceptance of Gayness."

I'm pretty sure if you just wanted to do a story on this subject, you can totally do it without getting slashy! For that one fic I posted on the LJ com that may or may not be dead, I was planning on keeping in line with canon and still having to deal with some of the post-outing issues without him being set up with anyone else. For instance, I can imagine him trying to "repair" friendships he had with certain characters would deal with his sexuality, and doesn't require any slash? Kiyama and Ryosuke are the obvious choices, but I'd also think him working things out with Yuuta, who I think has been implied to be a close friend of Mizu's for a while, is also a viable topic? lolz, I totally have some half-finished one-shots along those lines I need to cap off... >_>

"(Also I feel weird not being slashy about it, ha. Because I feel like a lot of the time when people say "But they just have such beautiful friendships & you don't get to see male friendships portrayed an awful lot of the time & blah blah I don't ship them" it's b/c they're trying to cover up being anti-slash. I'm not anti-slash! I love slash! I write slash! & yet I still feel kind of weird going, "Their friendships are awesome!!!!1")"

WTF ARE WE THE SAME PEOPLE. I don't talk about it a lot -- especially in fandoms like this where it seems everyone is all about the slash. Even though I like a few of these pairings there are lots of times I wonder, "where is the gen? Slash is cool and all, but sometimes I just want to read about them being best buds and stuff!" D:

super tl;dr, ack

[littlebutfierce]

I LOVE THIS COMMENT SO MUCH! \o/

every character had this issue to deal with that gets blown up majorly, whether that's realistic or not (I mean, Yuuta not being able to jump was The Big Issue for an episode)

Ahahaha, but I thought that was a reasonable & smart one to do! Cuz it was obviously not just about the literal jumping, it was about trusting himself & making mistakes & being able to feel he deserved the trust of other people. & also from what I understand, that kind of freaking out after a big mistake is v. common in athletics (or maybe I just watch too much baseball anime, though I just googled yips & it's apparently a real term, etc. etc.). No, srsly, though I think the way it was overcome was maybe a bit reality-stretching (Wataru isn't, er, the best sports psychologist ever), I thought it was a realistic problem to have, heh.

But I agree that the series drops lots of bombshells that don't get picked up again -- I wish the show was longer, alas, though at least it ended before it could jump the shark. Still, I wonder if they could've worked in at least little side references to plot elements besides the whole Akabane thing. Ah well.

I also believe there can be good Issue Fic, but so much of it is anvilicious that I want to stay away from it from a ten-foot pole. I would like to do the subtle approach, but often that way I don't feel like I'm doing said issue "justice", and ugh... there are some things I'd to try but I don't feel like I have the Writing Prowess or the Social Awareness to dive into it yet. At some point it gets overwhelming and I remember fandom is supposed to be my "fun thing" so I don't get a lot done... :S

For me, my worries are definitely more about having the writing chops -- not that I am letter-perfect on any social justice issues, natch, but I'm much more confident on that part! Though I'd also worry about accidentally putting things in about the Teen Gay Experience that fit in the US/UK experience but not the Japanese one (as an aside, I googled something like "gay teen suicide Japan" looking for percentages or whatever, but almost all the results I got were about gay teen suicides in the US. :| ).

Fic for me is supposed to be fun, but also... I dunno. I almost feel like a lot of what I write is (or tries to be, ahem) political even on a subtle level -- or, if the politics don't get across, that's at least part of what motivates me. Like what I've said before about centering women, & once I wrote a fic that talked about how masturbation is something high school guys joke about & it's almost okay for them to do, but it's a much more forbidden idea for teenage girls (& yet again, it's not like I was really able to research Japanese high school attitudes about masturbation, so possibly that was super-Western-tainted), &... I dunno. I write a lot of OT3 fic at the moment partly b/c I wish there were more images of poly relationships out there, so I write my own. I know a lot of people say the same about how they write women or POCs or disabled people etc. So... yeah. I dunno. I write for fun but also sometimes just cuz I need stories that affirm things that are important to me. Hm! But at the same time, doing that is fun for me -- it can be challenging (but so's writing any kind of fic, really), but it's really satisfying.

For instance, I can imagine him trying to "repair" friendships he had with certain characters would deal with his sexuality, and doesn't require any slash? Kiyama and Ryosuke are the obvious choices, but I'd also think him working things out with Yuuta, who I think has been implied to be a close friend of Mizu's for a while, is also a viable topic?

Oooh, this is true. I thought it was v. impressive of Kiyama especially to be all, "I can't return your feelings but you still pwn me as a gymnast, so can you help me w/my stag handstand?" Especially cuz ZOMG HE'D HAVE TO BE TOUCHED BY THE GAY BOY THAT HAS THE HOTS FOR HIM. But yeah, after that everyone just acts normal, &... yay for understanding & tolerance & whatever, but in real life it doesn't work like that. I'd be especially interested in seeing a fic where Ryosuke is still battling w/his socialized homophobia & trying to work it out. (*cough* In case that was one of your ideas!)

Even though I like a few of these pairings there are lots of times I wonder, "where is the gen? Slash is cool and all, but sometimes I just want to read about them being best buds and stuff!" D:

Totally!!! Though I should've clarified when I described people as "anti-slash" I really meant "homophobic." I think you can not want to read slash b/c you'd rather read gen, or you really don't like to read any fic w/ships that aren't explicit in canon (I think this line only holds up if you include straight ships in that, which is where a lot of anti-slash people fail). Buuuuut when people are like, "I just find it hard to believe that these characters would ever get together" when they're two dudes, & yet they're happy to read/write/etc. any other kind of situation in fic & wacky AUs or whatever, well. When their imagination can stretch to everything but OMG someone being gay... blergh.

I think I love the characters best as a team, so want to see more stuff about that, less stuff that kind of... ugh, I don't want to say "divides them up" or something, as if pairings automatically weaken the team or something. Just. Yeah. I really loved seeing the different sides of the team come together, & all the training scenes & stuff, so I guess I want more of that in fic too? IDK.

OK ENOUGH PRATTLE for now.

♫♪♫ this is the comment thread that doesn't end... ♫♪♫

[katzenjamming]

I AM SO SORRY I WONT SHUT UP

"Ahahaha, but I thought that was a reasonable & smart one to do! [...]"

I totally understand that! I actually get performance anxiety and I kinda assumed that Yuuta's problem was along that kind of line. It just felt like a weird thematic choice when just the surrounding issues were... like people (possibly) dying and so forth. What bugs me most is probably how grounded and mundane his Issue is compared to everyone else's, if that makes sense?

"But I agree that the series drops lots of bombshells that don't get picked up again -- I wish the show was longer, alas, though at least it ended before it could jump the shark. Still, I wonder if they could've worked in at least little side references to plot elements besides the whole Akabane thing. Ah well."

The show didn't jump the shark, which I'm glad about, but I still feel like the one of it's biggest flaws wasso much was being shoved into the show it felt like it could've easily been more bogged down? While I think it's a huge shame that some of these issues weren't touched on again, all the holes make this a show where I think there's a ton for fandom to explore!

"Fic for me is supposed to be fun, but also... I dunno. I almost feel like a lot of what I write is (or tries to be, ahem) political even on a subtle level -- or, if the politics don't get across, that's at least part of what motivates me."

Truth is I'm only recently getting back to fandom after several years of avoiding it, and the whole meta scene is a new one for me! (And this is probably the first time I had this kind of discussion about fandom, so sorry if I'm blabbing on too much about it! ^^;;) TBH, I feel kind of conflicted about a few things?

Like, I really like the idea of fandom being used to promote awareness. Reading fic that feature POCs, women, non-heteronormative relationships and the like is really cool. Maybe it's telling of my limited experience in the field, but I've just read a lot of fics that felt like it was hitting me over the head about the given issue? Reading something that feels like an informational packet or 90's after-school special almost feels like I'm being condescended to, though I'm not sure if that's a "me" thing.

Then there's the fact I got back into fandom for it to be my "fun" thing, but now I'm finding myself freaking out because I don't know if I'll write x right or unintentionally put off y group or... Like, in the current big WIP, I've unwittingly made class issues a huge part... which kind of terrifies me because I'm definitely not well-versed in that realm. Even in a terrible (and at one point, "shameless") idfic I'm working on were I noticed my desire to portray a mixed-orientation relationship might rub some people the wrong way? It's like every time I read meta about something someone reading into a fic I totally freak out and think "omg I don't want to be THAT PERSON who gets it SO WRONG". These are probably things I need to work out on my own, but IDK...

BTW, part of the research I've been doing has been on bullying in Japan, which includes bullying involving gay-identifying students. When I get a minute I could try to send you some stuff I found if you're interested? (I haven't gone through it all yet, though... >_>)

"Oooh, this is true. [...]"

I so agree with this whole paragraph! I'm also really interested in how the whole team continues to handle the Gay Revelation; particularly those three and I was kinda aiming to touch on this in one that fic but omg I'll do this one day! *shakes fist* On the flip side, I'd also like to see something that focused more on how the entire team would react in the case of two of them getting into a relationship? I don't know how that'd turn out, but maybe it'd be interesting?

"Totally!!! Though I should've clarified when I described people as "anti-slash" I really meant "homophobic.""

Ack! I also conflated those two terms (anti-slash and homophobia) in that comment, but I knew what you were getting at! I'm a total sucker for the "nakama/friendship/comrades" trope and I could read about that for ages and not get sick of it. It was definitely the thing that drew me into the show so I totally understand wanting to see more of that in the fandom!

... omg how many times did I use the word "issue" in that comment? lolz, sorry about adding another long reply there! >_>

Re: ♫♪♫ this is the comment thread that doesn't end... ♫♪♫

[littlebutfierce]

*rolls up sleeves to write tl;dr comment*

What bugs me most is probably how grounded and mundane his Issue is compared to everyone else's, if that makes sense?

Ah! I see what you mean. Though now I am wondering what they could've come up w/that would be totally OTT like the other issues, ha! Dying family member? Estranged family member? (That might be edging too close to Hino's angst, though he's not actually estranged from his father) They already did physical health problems, money problems, being lied to about your father... Though maybe they could've made Yuuta's anxiety about that part of a larger recurring anxiety issue for him (or maybe it could be that way in fic...). (But then again, I am kind of happy they didn't, cuz given the compressed timescales for the plotlines, it probably would've come off even weirder, & offensive, if he had this deep-rooted social anxiety or something for years & then Wataru's bumbling sports psychology just fixes it in a snap. If only!)

While I think it's a huge shame that some of these issues weren't touched on again, all the holes make this a show where I think there's a ton for fandom to explore!

Also v. true! I was thinking a while ago, wrt my primary fandom (Natsume Yuujinchou), that there's a difference sometimes between gaps in canon that make me excited as a fic writer & ones that make me feel frustrated. I guess it's the size of the gap: sometimes I feel like there just isn't enough to even hang fanon on, unless I am making things up out of whole cloth, which sometimes I feel okay about doing & sometimes I don't. Like... I don't know if I'd really want to make up Yuuta's family situation (iirc there's no mention of his family at all, is there?), even as a casual mention (partly cuz of the effort, ha), but I would be okay making up lots of stuff about Hino's brother. Though making up siblings for Yuuta is relatively minor -- I think I'm just lazy -- there are definitely other things I'd probably shy away from making up.

I've just read a lot of fics that felt like it was hitting me over the head about the given issue?

Fair enough -- & obviously what fics feel like they're doing that is a subjective thing! I mean, I'm sure there are lots that are totally unsubtle about it, & even ones that people hold up as being subtle & thought-provoking, well, who ever agrees universally on a fic wrt anything at all anyway? Ha! (Though as the one example I can think of at the mo, my friend wrote a fic that is blatantly about marriage equality, but... I dunno, though the point is super-obvious to me it doesn't feel anvil-y b/c, well, it makes sense? Augh, I am not explaining that well, & clearly I am prone to bias cuz it's my friend!)

Re: the "fandom is my happy place" sort of thing -- I have a lot of thoughts about that. First is a recognition that it takes a certain amount of privilege to be able to have that stance, y'know? Because if, say, you're in mainstream US superhero comics fandom & you're a woman, from my understanding there's a fair chance you'll run into lots of fic that isn't v. kind to women (which would be in keeping w/the bad parts of canon in a lot of cases). Women being fridged or women being raped as a vehicle for manpain or whatever. Or, jeez, I've bumped into tons of fic that does the creepy exotification thing for Asian people. So, yeah, I can totally get wanting fic & fandom to be a fun thing, but also, it's a lot easier for some people to do that than others.

It also strikes me that a lot of the really vociferous "fandom is fun, screw your PC police stuff" people are probably v. careful about characterization & canon when they're writing fic. To me, making sure the Issue stuff (gah, terrible shorthand, but I can't think of another one right now) is appropriate seems like it should just be another part of research for the fic, y'know? I mean, if people are going to be super-careful about canon details & dive into research for their fics so they can write an AU or whatever, shouldn't making sure they get the other stuff right be at least equally important?

The other thing is that of course people are going to fuck up. There's just no way around it, y'know? We fuck up characterization, we'll fuck up w/intersectional issue stuff. I know it can totally be scary! & I worry about it too. But... I dunno, I feel like it's a risk that has to be taken, again along w/the risk of getting characterization wrong or having a plot that just doesn't gel or whatever. I mean, I appreciate the political stuff will be more fraught!

Someone used the phrase "fail better" when it comes to writing this stuff -- & I think that's reasonable. Because nobody's going to get it perfect, but... that doesn't mean it's not worth trying.

Also I think this is where betas can really be useful, in addition of course to the usual research & blah blah. Like how dark_agenda helps people find betas for various chromatic cultures & time periods. Sometimes I think even things like factfinding or little_details can help w/that -- like I'm maybe kinda writing a fic about someone who goes to university in Japan as an older student, & from what I saw once in a quick google search, that's really not common at all (but some people do it). I might end up needing to ask for details about what kind of financial support (if any) would be available for such a student, & how that plays out wrt class, etc.

Though yeah, I find getting a beta to be scary sometimes anyway, & even moreso if you're like, "Hi, can you tell me if I'm showing my ass about Issue A?" Better to know, though, hahaha.

OH MAN THIS COMMENT IS SO LONG. >_< Um, yeah. Obviously apparently I like having these meta discussions once in a while too! ^^;;;

I'd be interested in seeing the stuff you found on bullying, if you don't mind! Though no rush -- if you get a chance that'd be great. Thank you!

I'm also really interested in how the whole team continues to handle the Gay Revelation

Yeah, & is it really likely that nobody else on other teams ever brings it up again?!? I would've loved to have seen a moment where someone else jeers about it & all the team members are like "STFU OR WE'LL BEAT YOU DOWN" (especially if it included the non-yankee ones getting fierce: Tsuchiya threatening someone, lolz!). Or or or finding out that someone else on another team who was gay heard about how their team just got over it & accepted Mizusawa, & that encouraged that person to come out or whatever.

If you wrote a fic that talked about how the team continued to deal w/the Gay Thing I would be all over that!!

On the flip side, I'd also like to see something that focused more on how the entire team would react in the case of two of them getting into a relationship? I don't know how that'd turn out, but maybe it'd be interesting?

That could be interesting indeed! Both wrt the Gay Thing & also jealousy about it somehow... not breaking up the team, but two of them suddenly potentially having something that's more of a priority than the team, & them trying to reassure the team that of course they're still working as hard as they can, etc. I could see Wataru flipping out about a couple being threatening to the team somehow.

I also conflated those two terms (anti-slash and homophobia) in that comment, but I knew what you were getting at!

Yeah, I was using them interchangably as well -- though I guess if someone doesn't like slash just cuz they don't like ships in general & want to read gen, but they're equally against not reading straight ships, I guess they wouldn't be anti- slash per se? IDK.

I'm a total sucker for the "nakama/friendship/comrades" trope and I could read about that for ages and not get sick of it.

ME TOOOOOOOO. That's partly why I watch so much baseball anime, ahahaha.