WIP Challenge Day 25, Tuesday

[jagnikjen]

How's the writing going today?

~ Cruising right along...
~ Making decent progress...
~ Eh, it could be better...
~ What?? This drivel can't be called writing...
~ Writing?? Ha ha ha ha ha...I wish.

Discussion topic...

Elmore Leonard that, in writing dialogue, qualifying "s/he said" with an adverb (softly, angrily, gravely, etc.) is practically always a no-no ... nay, a downright abomination. This is widely cited as a standard for good writing, along with the principle that one should almost never use dialogue tags or attributions other than "said" (e.g. he snarled, he growled, he barked, etc...) that many fic authors are prone to using. The reasoning is that dialogue should speak for itself, and the use of emotionally charged/descriptive attributions and adverbs breaks up the rhythm, clutters up the dialogue, and distracts attention from what the characters are saying. Some people follow the "said is the only acceptable dialogue tag" rule so religiously that they even frown on asked as a tag for a question.

On the other hand, there are many who disagree and think that this is an excessive generalization that seeks to force all writers into the same mold and is based on far-from-universal standards of what good writing should be. As someone recently wrote in an essay on this topic, "Not everyone wants to write like Elmore Leonard, and not everyone should."

Where do you stand on this? If you are a writer, do you try to avoid or minimize your use of adverbs and descriptive dialogue tags? Do you tend to use them but consider it a flaw in your writing? Or do you use them a lot and think it's perfectly fine and the so-called rules of good writing are arbitrary and stupid? Or are you somewhere in the middle?

Comments

[meridian_rose]

I use adverbs where I think they're needed. This is written fiction not a movie and the inflection can be important. There's a difference between, 'I said I was going to kill if you did it again,' when said softly, said jokingly, said calmly, or said angrily. This is especially true when the speaker might be displaying an unexpected emotion or amount of emotion given the current context.

If you never use 'ask' for a clear question, I'd frown at you, because 'said' is for statements not questions.

Every single book I read breaks one or more of these so-called rules, from never using adverbs to never using epithets. Fiction is not journalism and adverbs and epithets paint a more colourful picture than these black and white rules would allow.

[bay_alexison]

Just woke up, but today is going to be a huge editing day for me (my own writing and maybe my friend's too), so I shall update on that later. Much later (California timezone, wee). x_x

I"m going to say I'm pretty much in the middle. Sometimes you'll need the adverbs and dialogue tags to get the point across. I use adverbs and dialogue tags when appropriate.

[jagnikjen]

Today will be a no writing day for me. It's my hubby's birthday and I will be going home shortly to do yard work--for the first time in about four months. So yeah, it needs it.

As for the discussion topic...

I try to use as few adverbs as possible. I think 'she whispered' is stronger than 'she softly said', but there there is a time and place for them. Adverbs also tell rather than show, so, "She rubbed his back gently." is much less evocative than "Her silky smooth hands caressed his back in slow rhythmic circles."

As far as dialogue tags are concerned, sometimes a quick 'he said' is all that's needed just so the reader knows who's speaking. But using action tags helps animate the POV character--is John jingling the change or keys in his pocket? Or is Sally twirling her hair? Using internal narrative in conjunction with dialogue gives the reader more information than the other characters may have or better understanding of the POV character's thoughts/thought process.

[littlebutfierce]

800-ish words of probably nothing at all, but still, words! Keeping my brain warmed up & all that. Also I printed out some drafts of stuff to edit on the tube today, but then I forgot I did that & played mahjong on my phone instead. >_<

I try to minimize adverbs; I think sometimes they have their use (or at least sometimes I can't think of a way to rephrase them), but lots of times I think that sentences tend to be stronger if you use a more descriptive verb instead of an adverb.

I use descriptive dialogue tags the same way: with care, & with an eye to (hopefully) not overdoing it. Using "said" most of the time, I feel, lets the tag be invisible & focus the reader on what's being said, whereas sometimes using lots of dialogue tags bogs things down & feels artificial. They do have their place! Just not in every sentence. ^^;;;

[rhi]

I think that using character names and said or asked leads to a more transparent writing style: you can read more quickly because it's very clear and your brain barely pauses for comprehension. That said, no, not everyone wants to write in that style, nor should they have to. Variations in 'said' is one of the notable markers of individual style, as Rex Stout noted in Plot It Yourself; I think people should get to write as themselves, thanks.

As for the adjective after 'said'... if you're not letting people use anything but 'said' you're going to get that. I'd say use it deliberately, or in moderation, and write like yourself.

[lea_hazel]

I'm very selective with my use of dialogue tags, but I also don't like to use twenty iterations of a phrase or fragment in the same passage, because it looks and feels ugly, and it encourages readers to skim repetitive bits. Typically I write from limited third person, so I will only use physical adverbs as opposed to ones that describe emotions or state of mind. I do think the words themselves are not enough. Tone and posture are an enormous part of reading someone's response when speaking in person, and they should be an equally big part of written dialogue. Gestures, facial expressions and tone of voice are very important to me when I'm trying to let the reader figure out what the other speaker is thinking.

It seems to me that modern English language fiction has a strong fetish for the spare and economical. Certainly it's one style of writing that's very effective for some things, but if everyone wrote like that, reading would be incredibly dull and predictable. So, "nouns and verbs only" isn't a rule I adhere to.

[lacygrey]

So I edited the scene I planned to, though it was way too easy compared with yesterday, and I'm onto the next one, which is rather a mess.

On the discussion point I think 'its not what you do - its the way that you do it': I love the twiddly bits when they are well done and add to the fic and loathe them when they are overdone and get in the way.

'Whispering' is very different from 'saying', I think its a useful distinction. And when dialog is reduced to basics, or when its meaning becomes unimportant, e.g., during a sex scene, then all the descriptive extras can come into their own.

[lacerta]

I've written about 250, rather sketchy words today. I'm not sure whether the scene should stay in, but it's good having it written out anyway.

[elistaire]

Today I'm editing as tomorrow I post!

Wow--that's a good discussion topic.

I suppose I fall in the middle. Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. Of course, depending on style, it could all go out the window. The extremes can be wonderful. But I wouldn't want to only have extremes. I'd rather have an interesting story than worry too much about "said" and "asked" throughout it. If I'm paying too much attention to that, the author didn't write enough to pull me into that reading-headspace where the words don't actually exist, I'm really in the story.

[taelle]

I did some writing! Which is a continuation of the Sunday writing! Oh dear, is it going to be a story, and not just bunch of randomness?

As for discussion topic... I don't like too strict rules. So, if you have too many adverbs it looks ridiculous, but sometimes it can be perfectly fine. Also, I am not a native English speaker and I write in both English and my native language - and while using only 'he said' might look right in English (I don't know!), it looks fairly wrong and poor writing to me, influenced as I am by the norms and traditions of my language. (sorry, not sure whether this made any sense. Late at night I start worrying sometimes whether I've lost all my English).

[linaewen]

My day was a "could be better day" -- though I'll add that it was good enough to move forward with! I did some more editing of old stuff, which was good. I'm basically rereading older chapters and finding my way back to my main WIP. I really want to get a new chapter written before the year is done! I've also gone and signed up for a monthly challenge that involves a recipe fic of all things, and I'm trying figure out what to do for that. So I guess I've been thinking ficish things to some extent.

I really like to vary my words so I'm not using the same ones all the time -- that takes me out of the story more than reading a variety of descriptive words. I feel very happy about the way I use adverbs and descriptive dialogue tags, and I haven't had any complaints from my readers! There is value in being conscious of such things, and I'm sure I could tone it down a bit in some cases, but it's really not that important to me at this point.